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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it does. But many people want to be able to look at the decoded data, and since the copier can generate either .scf, .g64,.adf, .ibm, etc. files, it makes sense the editor can view/edit any of these formats.
Last edited by JimDrew on Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Immortal Grandmaster of C64

Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 4702
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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it'd be interesting to see that part then _________________
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I did a search here and through Yahoo, and I am unable to find any programs that offer a similar type of editor for .G64 files. Can someone point one out? I would like to compare my editor with the others to make sure that I am not missing anything. |
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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I discovered a neat feature that I am building into the disk copier. I already had the ability to adjust the bit cell timing window (low/high) to adjust how the bits are interpreted when decoding data, but since doing the Bit Cell Timing Visualization programming, I discovered that the few disks that I have with random read errors is due to a few bits being just outside of the normal GCR clocking window of the 1541 hardware. You can see these odd bit cell times easily in the visualization display. So, it is very possible to take these odd bit cell times (which really aren't that far off) and correct the bit error. So, I am adding a new check box to the copier to turn on/off data recovery. When a bit cell time is found to be outside of the normal range, it will be fixed when this option is on. I can now read all of my disks that the 1541 has troubles with. One disk took 52 re-reads with the 1541 to get the sector checksum correct. Now, it only takes one read with the SuperCard Pro. |
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Groupie in Training

Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 128
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice! The more you post about it the more I love it. Are you currently planning on demoing this at CommVEx? I'd love to see this baby in action. |
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I will have both versions (prototypes) at the CommVex convention in Las Vegas at the end of the month. The first version is shown in the beginning of this thread, and the new version is the one that has the micro-SD media support and can also function as a floppy drive emulator. |
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Groupie in Training

Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 128
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent! Thanks! |
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C64 Enthusiast


Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Age: 39 Posts: 790 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:04 am Post subject: |
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I'll be there with my toughest to copy disks Jim - I look forward to seeing this in action. Good progress. _________________ Sncboom2k
I'm not a collector! (I just have a lot of stuff!) |
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: |
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What disks are those? |
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Immortal Grandmaster of C64

Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 4702
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Here is what the display will look like |
i like how it shows absolutely nothing =P _________________
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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That was the sample form without the bit cell timing filled in yet. This is similar to what the KryoFlux group calls their 'scatter'. |
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C64 Enthusiast


Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Age: 39 Posts: 790 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sent you the entire list of disks via PM.
Anyone reading this thread with a copy of Bounty Bob attending the show?
How about anyone with the original DiskMaker disks?
I'll be bringing DOTC and Superstar Ice Hockey as well as a lot of others.
Those would be some great challenges I imagine. _________________ Sncboom2k
I'm not a collector! (I just have a lot of stuff!) |
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Groupie in Training

Joined: 18 Jun 2012 Posts: 128
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I would think some VMax protected games would make great demonstrations for this. From what I can understand about this and VMax protection, this device should be able to handle them with no problem. That would make for a really nice demo. Actually, can VMax games work in .g64 files? I haven't checked. Maybe that patched Vice with .g64 support could be used to demo that as well. |
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Grandmaster of C64


Joined: 10 Nov 2003 Age: 44 Posts: 2739 Location: Delaware, OH USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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 _________________ My favorite game houses: Broderbund and Synapse.
Last edited by jerrykurtz on Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Newbie
Joined: 04 Jan 2012 Posts: 12
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Good g64 images of V-Max games should work perfectly fine in the later builds (2.3.19) of the VICE trunk, or the SPS build off the KryoFlux site.
For example, an image of DotC was released (with permission of the copyright owner) with the SPS VICE build, which contains an exact image of the disk, and works fine.
Personally, I'm quite interested to hear how SuperCard Pro handles BBSB, and DotC.
Thanks!
Robert |
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C64 Enthusiast


Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Age: 39 Posts: 790 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry - you want to loan any of those tough titles? _________________ Sncboom2k
I'm not a collector! (I just have a lot of stuff!) |
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Grandmaster of C64


Joined: 10 Nov 2003 Age: 44 Posts: 2739 Location: Delaware, OH USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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 _________________ My favorite game houses: Broderbund and Synapse.
Last edited by jerrykurtz on Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Considering that we can duplicate DOTC, BBSB, and all of the other titles mentioned with SuperCard+ for the C64 (released two+ decades ago), there won't be any problems copying these today - with any SuperCard version.
It is interesting to see that the KryoFlux's .g64 conversion does not syncronize the data bits as the CBM hardware does. If you look at track 18 of either DOTC or BBSB you will find SYNC marks with no syncronized data following, which should start with a 0x52. Since the bits are correct (shifted) obviously VICE emulates the data separator correctly enough to syncronize the data as it is read. It would be a lot easier for anyone wanting to view the data as the drive hardware would give it, for the data to be syncronized. I have bit shifting capability built into the analyzer so that you can shift the data around to identify invalid syncronizations.
I am sure that there would be a new image format required for emulators with programs using protections like RapidLock, where the density changes during reads on the same track. |
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C64 Enthusiast


Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Age: 39 Posts: 790 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Rapidlock is just sick. lol
I have yet to make a successful copy of DOTC (the back side) with any of my drives equipped with the SC+ or nibtools.
So it will be great to see supercard pro take care of it. _________________ Sncboom2k
I'm not a collector! (I just have a lot of stuff!) |
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Grandmaster of C64


Joined: 10 Nov 2003 Age: 44 Posts: 2739 Location: Delaware, OH USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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 _________________ My favorite game houses: Broderbund and Synapse.
Last edited by jerrykurtz on Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Forum Junkie

Joined: 04 Jan 2002 Posts: 520
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| JimDrew wrote: | | Considering that we can duplicate DOTC, BBSB, and all of the other titles mentioned with SuperCard+ |
I still assert that the SC+ GCR nibbler doesn't have accurate enough sync length reproduction code to reliably dupe this protection, never mind all the monkeying around that you have to do with the drive speed for tracks 12-18. That's where SC Pro will come in handy.
| Quote: | | It is interesting to see that the KryoFlux's .g64 conversion does not syncronize the data bits as the CBM hardware does. If you look at track 18 of either DOTC or BBSB you will find SYNC marks with no syncronized data following, which should start with a 0x52. |
Well, there is an issue with this if the sync mark is not a length that is evenly divisible by 4, or doesn't start on a nibble boundary. You would have to pad the sync length by a few bits to make the next byte appear 'cleanly', which makes it inaccurate for use in an emulator. Vice does do bitwise rotation of the track, so it handles this situation properly.
| Quote: | | I am sure that there would be a new image format required for emulators with programs using protections like RapidLock, where the density changes during reads on the same track. |
Well, g64 already supports speed-zones, so you can set a different density within a track. It doesn't support a more subtle drive-speed change within a track, but I don't think that's used by any protection I've seen. Does any emulator actually support density emulation yet? Last I checked, if you tell vice to change to an incorrect density, it still reads valid data when it shouldn't (ie. reading density %00 at %10) |
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C64 Enthusiast


Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Age: 39 Posts: 790 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Sent you a pm Jerry in regards to your disks. Thanks. _________________ Sncboom2k
I'm not a collector! (I just have a lot of stuff!) |
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| jerrykurtz wrote: | | JimDrew wrote: | | I am sure that there would be a new image format required for emulators with programs using protections like RapidLock, where the density changes during reads on the same track. |
Hmmm, it's odd that the unpatched G64 images of every RapidLok disk that I've dumped with KryoFlux work just fine in the new VICE. So, why again are they not failing? |
Good question. Maybe that is why there is a specific RapidLock option for dumping with KryoFlux. Perhaps the density changing is being done when the image is created and does not occur at all in VICE. As long as the correct data was present, the emulator wouldn't need to support changing the density. Afterall, a G64 image is of data that is dumped using a preset density. There is no way to alter the data to simulate a different density because there is no flux data to reference. Go run my GCR editor under VICE and tell me if you think density levels are supported correctly.
I would be interested in knowing if the G64 image dumped with NIB would also work in VICE and also if the G64 image dumped with KryoFlux could be written back to a floppy and then used on a real 1541.
Last edited by JimDrew on Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:08 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Master of C64

Joined: 15 May 2012 Age: 47 Posts: 1165
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| LordCrass wrote: | | JimDrew wrote: | | Considering that we can duplicate DOTC, BBSB, and all of the other titles mentioned with SuperCard+ |
I still assert that the SC+ GCR nibbler doesn't have accurate enough sync length reproduction code to reliably dupe this protection, never mind all the monkeying around that you have to do with the drive speed for tracks 12-18. That's where SC Pro will come in handy. |
It appears that my sync routines in SC+ are just fine. You can experiment with the GCR editor and see that no matter how many FF's you write, you get the same number back when reading. This is confirmed with my SuperCard Pro dump as well. |
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